This morning we brought up a case of men bashing the women’s PR Power Women index. Just to recap:
Here’s an unfortunate incident: Men behaving badly, particularly in the comments arena. In a blatant case of misogyny, several men take to task women marketing bloggers trying to set up a top twenty independent PR Power women index. The boys got so bad that Valeria Maltoni had to shut down comments on her post. We’re a big fan of Valeria and some of the other ladies on the list. Let’s hope these guys can get over their angst and see the light.
In addition to this blurb, I commented extensively on said post. Since the Blogs of Fire post this morning, we received an interesting email from Lewis Green — the author of the offending post — who has permitted us to reprint his email.
Thank you for your feedback. As a marketing blog, you are correct, we have bigger issues to discuss. However, I also am a political being and have spent a great deal of my life marching and lobbying for civil rights, including human rights. Much of that effort was directed at breaking down the men-only admitted doors. So when I perceive that women are creating a women-only door my natural instinct is to fight against it. I just believe that doors keep people out, and I believe people should always find doors open.
It’s clear that Lewis did not research my blog. Because we are located in DC, we see civil rights “campaigns” and political beings all the time. And much of what they have to say tends to be dressed up justifications for acting in an inappropriate fashion. Whether that’s lobbyists, cause-based marketing, or yes, the ever-spinning politicians.
Further as a PR practitioner, please don’t BS me. I can smell it a mile away. Consider Lewis’ post title, “Throwing a Bomb Against Women.” Of course, there’s the accompanying image. Classy, huh?
Let me be crystal clear: Treating women this way is WRONG!!!!!!! You can dress it up however you like, at the heart of the issue, you are slamming women, who have a harder time in the business world because of men and the societal rules that work against them… It’s atrocious to see men attack women this way, especially so recently after the Kathy Sierra controversy.
Treat Women Right
Lewis dressed up his post with an accompanying piece today asking if women are discriminated against. Some interesting stats are used, which show the growth of women businesses. Here are some stats that Lewis didn’t include in this second post:
- Only ten Fortune 500 companies are led by women
- From Lewis’s own bomb throwing post, of the Technorati 100, only eight are written by women
- Again from Lewis’ bomb post, of the Power 150 only “13% are women.”
- A woman has never been elected to the office of president or vice president
It’s apparent that women can come to business, but we won’t let them lead. Until these stats change, women should band together to support each other in their efforts to be successful. Women still have a glass ceiling they face… in the blogosphere and in real life.
You want to know what it’s like to be woman out in the social media world? Watch “Being a Chick on YouTube,” which was brought to us via Leah Culver on Pownce.
Unfortunately, just like Valeria and Lewis’ post, men behaved badly in Leah’s Pownce post. Some of the comments:
- I’d hit it.
- As a male podcasters (alex and I), I can say that it hurts us to have thousands of women leave sexual comments about us. It sucks being treated like a large piece of mansteak. Ladies, NO means NO.
- I don’t think she is the brightest bulb in the closet
- The Resident should be happy she is apparently very desirable because in 20 years, she probably won’t be getting as many second looks from horny teenagers.
Boys, one last time: Transparency’s great, but in these repeated instances it has highlighted a need to change. It’s time to stop bashing women online. And we need to celebrate female successes online and offline, anyway we can.
From Valeria’s post, here are the top PR Women bloggers. Congratulations ladies, you have the Buzz Bin’s Support. Never stop blogging.
- What’s Next Blog B. L. Ochman
- Diva Marketing Blog Toby Bloomberg
- BlogWrite for CEOs Debbie Weil
- Communication Overtones Kami Huyse
- Forrester’s Marketing Blog Shar, Charlene, Chloe, Christine, Elana, Laura & Lisa
- The Origin of Brands Laura Ries
- Branding & Marketing Chris Brown
- Customers Rock! Becky Carroll
- Conversation Agent Valeria Maltoni
- Corporate PR Elizabeth Albrycht
- The Copywriting Maven Roberta Rosenberg
- CK’s Blog CK (Christina Kerley)
- Spare Change Nedra Kline Weinreich
- Marketing Roadmaps Susan Getgood
- advergirl Leigh Householder
- Brand Sizzle Anne Simons
- Kinetic Ideas Wendy Maynard
- Flooring The Consumer C.B. Whittemore
- Presto Vivace Blog Alice Marshall
- Email Marketing Best Practices Tamara Gielen
It’s interesting, for sure, the way some people react to things like this. Just like how every now and then we are reminded that race relations are still not 100% comfortable in this country, it’s also true that the “battle of the sexes” is still very much in play.
I don’t see a “Top 20 PR Women Bloggers” as closing a door on men. Men already own blogging, as your stats point out–so why not highlight the best and the brightest of us women? Would Lewis also have a problem with a list of say, the top African American bloggers, or the top Hispanic bloggers? Sometimes a group just wants to highlight some of its members so they don’t get lost in the shuffle. To have a top 20 male bloggers list would be absurd, because they already dominate all the lists that there are already–there’s no need to highlight them further.
Geoff,
I have nothing to gain by defending myself against your personal attacks. You may live in DC, and that doesn’t matter to me. It has nothing to do with your personal attacks on someone you know nothing about. Here are a few facts:
1. My lobbying efforts were on behalf of social justice groups, all of them committed to human rights.
2. I have been arrested several times for protesting on behalf women.
3. I am an Associate Member of an Order of Nuns, the Sisters of St. Joseph of Peace.
Anyone who knows me knows that I don’t have a BS cell in my body. I say what I believe. And I believe that we do harm to the human spirit and to human rights when we promote groups of people who exclude others based on gender, race and ethnicity, and I will never apologize for holding those views. And with a little research you will learn that the focus of the early women’s rights movement was to break down the barriers of exclusionism. Creating an all-women list is no different than creating an all-men list, which I would also be opposed to.
Thanks Geoff. Apparently it needed to be said and you said it well.
Small suggestion, instead of referring to Kathy Sierra, who deserves to be known for a superb blog on creating user interfaces, perhaps you should refer to the MeanKids incident. It focuses notoriety upon who it belongs. Just a thought.
Lewis, I see No Worthy Excuse for justifying the call-out and the nature in which it was done. In my opinion, you owe these women a very public apology. We’ve reached that point in a conversation where you agree to disagree.
As far as personal attacks, misogyny and BS are very applicable descriptions for what’s occurred. Defending the call-out behind service as a member of an order of nuns is BS. I call it like I see it, too.
Sarah and Alice, thank you for your excellent comments.
I guess we can throw this one out the window:
“However, cursing, personal attacks or harsh language directed toward the authors or other commenters (or other people engaged in the extended conversation) will not be tolerated: Any comment containing such language will not be published. Comments that smack of “spamâ€? will not be posted.”
Good rule. Poor execution.
I belong to a lot of women’s groups and I am not racist or sexist or anything else. Book clubs, professional organizations and I would join women’s writing groups on the blogosphere and not think twice about it. It is in no way shape or form discriminatory toward men. In no way shape or form does it mean I don’t like men. I will be the first to admit there is a certain fellowship among a circle of women, but in no way is it demeaning toward men. It’s just like a bunch of guys going to a ball game. Neither is elite nor exclusionary.
Cam: Good point. I was wrong. Cursing and executing a retort in the comment section from me shouldn’t have happened in that fashion. I should have let my original post stand as it was. Apology to Lewis for not letting his defense stand unmarred.
Geoff, just wrote a response post, link here. :) Thanks for the inspiration!
I certainly hope we reach a point where such lists are no longer needed.
I will ask these questions, though: if there are indeed as many women blogging as there are men (which I *do* believe to be true), then whose fault is it there is such a disparity?
Do we blame Todd Andrlik for incorporating his subjective bias into the AdAge150?
Do we blame the creators of Google and Technorati, for giving greater link-weight to Y-chromosome-blogs?
Or do we examine ourselves, and ask the person in the mirror why he/she spends more time with Himler than Huyse?
Now, if there is a visibility benefit here, I’m all for it. It’s really no different than Geoff touting the Buzz Bin as the biggest DC-based PR blog. BUT (and this is a big BUT), you have to be at least aware of the perception others might infer. Is there an implicit bit of sexism involved in keeping the list? Is there an implied message that women can’t compete in the arena of ideas? I’d hate for my daughter to derive her self-esteem from being ranked high in a smaller pool if it meant others questioned her quality and validity.
Geoff – I’m not lobbing bombs here or defending anyone else – but would you be insulted if you found out others pooh-poohed your DC-blog ranking? If I proclaimed myself as the King of the Alabama Communications Bloggers, how would that be perceived?
SOMEWHAT RELATED:
If we’re going to talk about the most influential female bloggers, why should we discount Jackie Huba? I know she partners with Ben McConnell over at Customer Evangelists, but what does it say about the list that her achievements are discounted because there is a Y-Chromo with admin privileges? Is she not equally responsible for the success of that blog? You’ve got Foresters listed above, and it is a team blog.
Examine yourself carefully: Does Jackie Huba get denied a place on the list, because of a hidden prejudice that says that Ben McConnell is somehow more of a contributor than she is?
If the people backing the W-List (not just Valeria, but everyone who has joined in the cheering) have until this point not even considered Jackie, that saddens me. Even sadder, they are making Lewis Green’s point in a way that he is not eloquent enough to express.
Sarah: great post.
Ike: I just lifted the list from Valeria’s site. I agree that Jackie Hubba should be in the list, and arguably Strumpette.
People always want to take down the top dog. As far as top ranked in DC, I’ll claim it on Technorati for PR. Until someone proves me wrong (and I am open to that), then I am #1. Today. I don’t really care how anyone perceives it. The stats are the stats.
If you want to use a different measurement, then Presto Vivace via Ad Age 150 is the #1 DC PR Blogger (yeah, ALice!). And if you want to say social media consultant, Debbie Weill is #1 in DC using any ranking. How’s that for pooh-pooh?
Stumpette? Drama Queen train wreck blog? The whole premise of the blog is an insult to women, aside from the fact it is written by a man.
- I won’t make the case for Amanda Chapel – and I’m one of the few who buys into the premise that there are more females in the Amandae Collective than males.
- I know you just copied the list. Many have copied the list. I’m just asking a really irritating question. ;)
- I’m not pooh-poohing your DC ranking, just merely pointing out how there are different degrees of acceptance given to the slice you choose. I’m willing to bet most people would consider “Best DC Blogger” to be more prestigious than “Best Alabama Blogger”, even though there are far more people in Alabama than in DC. I’m also willing to bet it comes down to an “accepted” prejudice that people in the South are slower and dumber. (“After all, it wouldn’t take MUCH to be the King of Alabama Bloggers.”) There’s a great deal of collective ambiguity here about when it is socially acceptable to discriminate.
- And for the record, I do NOT consider myself to be King of anything. I was using satire and a hypothetical to make my point.
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Move along, people. Nothing to see here…
I was tracking the list until it became perceived as a weapon. That was never the intention. The idea was hey, let’s expand this list of women marketers by adding other great blogs by women I read, including some new entrants.
And yes, I do know about BlogHer from Toby Bloomberg and Tara Hunt, two exceptional individuals.
It did not occur to me that I was potentially going to upset so many by celebrating so few — comparatively speaking of course. I am bowing out of this after all.
Many people did end up meeting each other as a result of the W List so I might have fulfilled one of my promises: connecting ideas and people.
Thank you for the shout out.
And that’s the real tragedy, Valeria. This list shoud never have been called into question like this as it is only a fun, campy list celebrating you and your peers’ successes. I hope the list continues in the face of this ill-founded controversy.
GL
I tend to agree Geoff.
Where is the effort for mutual understanding? Why make much ado about nothing by targeting someone’s list?
Sure, I appreciate some people were concerned, perhaps, about the exclusive nature of the list, but I have yet to find one that is all inclusive anywhere. Where was the outrage there?
Right. Once again, it seems to me that the only criteria for whether someone likes a list or doesn’t like a list is based on how high up they rank on the list. Yawn.
You did a good thing by targeting this topic Geoff.
All my best,
Rich
I don’t know how it is in PR circles, but one of the criticisms leveled at women in other circles have been that people don’t know about us because we don’t promote ourselves. A recent example where when I criticized a book that featured 39 ‘expert’ programmers with only one women, I was asked to provide ‘lists’ of women who the organizers could have invited to participate.
You can imagine the anger I feel towards those who are being critical of a person whose only act was to provide a list of top women in the PR business.
We are criticized if we don’t promote ourselves, and criticized when we do.
This isn’t the same thing as reverse discrimination and anyone who thinks otherwise has some latent hostility issues towards women they may want to get professional help for.
I can’t believe I read this thread after all the hassles we women in technology have had to suffer these last several years–where it is somehow our fault women aren’t represented in management in tech companies (see any women in Facebook?), or at conferences, or in publications–because we’re not promoting ourselves enough!!!
You may be happy to know that several of the women on the list did a drive by on Lewis’s post, and after a nice “discussion� in the comments ranging between 20-40, Lewis yielded to the pressure and has agreed to support the list.